Paladin Feelings about Q2 Update

  • Just as the title says, I'd like opinions or thoughts on the impact the new update has on individuals playing Paladin. It seems we're the only class who received no new skills (the skills were already listed on the skill tree, despite no books for these skills dropping from monsters yet) and I know several paladins who have stopped leveling up (apart from dungeons) because of a lack of variety skills recieved at Paladin level (as we level we recieve more buffs).


    We receive bless/fist up lvl 6 at 121 and 126 respectfully and bless/fist up lvl 7 at 141 and 146, yet the defense difference is a mere 2 points that, at this level is insignificant because tank classes are easily self supported on maps like Hell. (I.E Auto Genisis from SG and spamming Tiny Pots on Warlord).


    Yes, Paladins are a support class. And yes, that isn't suggesting buffs aren't important but towards the end of the game we need motivation to keep playing. Perhaps a new attack skill or DOT skill that would make sticking around for those higher levels meaningful while we wait for new maps to arrive.

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x

  • In terms of opinions on what kind of new skills I'd like to see for the healer class, I would personally like to see a new offensive ST skill for Paladins. Like OP mentioned, I feel that there's plenty of supporting skills already in the healer toolkit.


    My suggestions on offensive skill moves for Paladin (I leave the skill name and design creativity to someone with better creativity):


    (1) A New Primary ST Move that Replaces Illusion Quake


    Every class has experienced a shift in ST skills at some point (e.g. Mage Class: Mind Buster -> Magic Thunder/Fire -> Fire Ball; Knight Class: Slash -> Penetration -> Force Cut), yet the healer class sticks with Illusion Quake as the primary ST skill throughout its lifetime (in addition with Oblivion--a DoT skill--and Ghost Steel--a mainly stun skill). Nonetheless, I don't mind IQ at all; it scales well with MEN and the slow goes well with it, but a change in ST in a lifetime would be nice to have.


    I personally would like this new ST move to be like Fire Ball where Fire Ball also offers additional effects (for Fire Ball, there's a small DoT and a small chance to stun). OG Illusion Quake had a small chance to stun, too, so this new move could have, at least, the following components:

    • Higher damage than IQ (of course)
    • Retain IQ's slow component--that helps with solo ST'ing (or maybe not? if this could be something paired with IQ)
    • Small chance to stun for a short period (e.g. 1 second)

    Unsure what other additional effects could be added aside from the listed above (e.g. a small DoT, a debuff that "blinds" mobs with light that decreases their hit rate, like how Sandstorm does).


    (2) A New ST Nuke


    I don't remember when exactly this happened, but for at least much of CB, Oblivion dealt damage greater than Illusion Quake until a change was implemented on all DoT skills (which decreased the attack's damage but increased the DoT from the skill), so prior to this change, I enjoyed Oblivion as a nuke skill (with a DoT and CD) to complement IQ'ing. Now, Oblivion is more of a DoT skill to use (which, nonetheless, is fine).


    But yeah, when it comes to Dungeons (whether Boss Dungeons or the Seasonal Dungeons), it'd be nice to throw out a nuke skill at the monster for a bit more DPS and would something to add onto a healer's ST toolkit.


    As for additional effects that this skill can offer, I leave that open (e.g. maybe something similar to Cruel Blow's effect), but would prefer something unique if possible.


    Other healer skill ideas:


    I agree with Rage's recent post on new skills listed for the healer class: Coming up with New Skills

    • AoE version of Howling would be an interesting support AoE move to offer (or in general, a support AoE from a healer class would be something to look forward in the higher levels, as it's hard to beat Power Light and Life Conversion in terms of exciting moves to use)


    Closed Beta

    Celten - Paladin 13X (GM of Chill-n-Chat) l Matcha - ArchMage13X l Salten - Disciple 6X
    ---
    Open Beta
    Matcha - Archmeme 14X (Main) l Celten- Priest 11X (Side Healer) l
    Sriracha - Apprentice 5X (Tanking Farmer) l Ube - Templar 11
    X (Side Tank)

  • Healers shouldnt nuke. They are healers. Allbeit they are not Pureist in healing seeing as they do have damaging skills. it is necessary in the early game life of a healer. In the end game of things that is not how it is. I agree that yes a Dot skill ( regardless of aoe or single target) Would be something nice to see on healers but in th elong and short of things. Healers are meant to keep people alive while doing minimal damage out fo all of the people in a group. no they are not meant to solo. that was never in their design. if you want single target or aoe damage. Put down the cane and pick up a sword club dagger or staff.


    It is not my intention to be....Negative about it. But its how things are. Healers Heal Dps to Damage. And tanks get slapped in the face. Such is the way of the world. From the earliest of games to the present. No healing is not a self sustainable class. Yes it is based on the need for a healer by others, But that is why we have other character spaces. To make alts to help support that need

  • Healers are meant to keep people alive while doing minimal damage out fo all of the people in a group. no they are not meant to solo. that was never in their design. if you want single target or aoe damage. Put down the cane and pick up a sword club dagger or staff.


    No healing is not a self sustainable class. Yes it is based on the need for a healer by others, But that is why we have other character spaces. To make alts to help support that need.

    I disagree. I think healers should have the ability to solo if they desire. Obviously it's less effective than other classes, especially as each class progresses, but that doesn't make it futile. As a healer in a sea of other healers you aren't always going to find another party and for those maps that require you to be able to DPS (seasonal maps, dungeons, Paladin CC) I think it would be benifical to add another standard skill to the repetoir.


    You can have alts, yes, but the healing class as a whole is still a kron sink in terms of buying pots. This does go away or reduce as you receive Life Conversion but it's still there. And again, you rely on someone else (whether it's your alt or another character) to refresh your funds.


    One or two new offensive skills really isn't going to completely change the dynamic of the game but it will allow healers the opportunity to DPS when their main functionality isn't being utilized.

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x

    Edited once, last by MsSarahMay: Had a spelling error that needed to be fixed ().

  • Even though I have no healer alt I do believe a glimpse of flexibility wouldn't hurt this class. IMO Ana from Overwatch has a great healer ideology.

    For those who haven't played Overwatch:

    Ana is a healer who needs to shoot his own teammates in order to heal them, thus limiting her opportunity to DPS, but when she is in need to aim at the enemy she has the capacity to do so, yet it is weaker than actual dps characters.

  • As a healer myself, I agree with OP.

    Having IQ from lvl 16 - Forever as our main ST feels, well, just bleh....


    I feel like adding another ST ability would be a good thing for us healers. It doesn't have to be a nuke but it should be an upgrade to IQ.

    Especially hitting Paladin lvlz. We've proven ourselves here.


    Odinex I understand we healers are here to heal our tanks and party members, but why does that mean we are not allowed to fend for ourselves?

    It's no way near game braking to allow us the ability to hold our own when we want to venture out and do events (or our Dargon dailies, and any new dailies that may be implemented later on down the line) when we don't have our main tank/group to party with. Why should we be forced to log/create and alt just to do these things?

    CBT:

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  • MsSarahMay I believe most of the healer skills got updated more so then new in comparison to the old original game.


    Howling - works properly now where as before it did not.

    Life Conversion - has a new graphical update.

    Powerlight - is a new skill that replaced the original in the form of a AoE


    Illusion Quake however like Broomy mentioned, having to use that all the way from lv16 is somewhat stale. It also got nerfed in many ways gameplay wise due to the removal of its original " Stun Rate " in the same way Templar's got nerfed, It even allowed Healers to be duelists in arena of which that got hit quite hard, its nostalgic gameplay isn't the same no more its just lost.


    5 new skills each class was promised, " Filling up Skill-slots " as I got told with useless once or not new once is a waste of a skill-slot. Even if it does improve our gameplay experience. Hence I argue healers shouldn't get a New ST Skill for healers " among the 5 new skills ", but give healers a extra ** Single Target skill ** next to the 5 new once they would get.

    For example grant a ST Skill that hits a bit harder then IQ later down the road, but with its original effects of IQ i.e its Stun Rate <- as a suggestion. Meaning not at lv151 or 131 or 111 no perhaps even as early as Lv96. This will give healers their own very much needed " Agency " to do activities like the seasonal event or guild dungeon and provide some DPS to any dungeon party.


    I believe the reason for the IQ change i.e its stunrate removal was due to the implementations of Solo Havens and keeping the balance intact. Yet solo havens now I don't even see enough players really go there to warrant not allowing a change like this in fear of balance cause if that's the case I'd tackle powerleveling more over this part of the game.


    And yes Odinex while that is not their role, try and play the game ST-ing with just your lv16 skill all the way to Lv131+. Examples, Ward as a Disciple all the way to Saint Guardian or Quick Shot as Scout all the way to Archerlord and getting nothing new for it... it is unfun i'd imagine.

  • Why can't a healer go pow pow? We shouldn't have to rely on a tanker to get our levels all the time...some would like to go solo and kill with fun. I agree...give us a new skill to actually do some damage instead of just IQ...

  • As a healer myself, I agree with OP.

    Having IQ from lvl 16 - Forever as our main ST feels, well, just bleh....


    I feel like adding another ST ability would be a good thing for us healers. It doesn't have to be a nuke but it should be an upgrade to IQ.

    Especially hitting Paladin lvlz. We've proven ourselves here.

    Chances are, if you have a Paladin on your team,they know what they're doing. And they've shown the agency to get to that point. We can argue the dynamic of a party as means of leveling up because it seems players that don't have healers unfairly assume a healer is always needed but this isn't the case, especially as the game progresses. I would argue that healers at certain levels are needed. (To assist with LB, Sleepless, Oda, Amorica,Hell, dungeons, etc.) Broomy brought up a good point. It is stale to use the same skill from 16-131 with no change. All our ST attack skills come at low levels and our one Def Debuff only slightly higher. We have to wait till 121 for Powerlight and still require a party to use it (though this isn't a bad thing). My mage at level 66 already had several "upgraded" skills. Why should we suffer with essentially the same skill set till Paladin and beyond?


    Hell, even Minor Heal gets upgraded to Cooling Heal at 91.

    I really appreciate the changes made to Howling and Powerlight compared to how it was in OG. I discussed a new attack at Paladin level but I'm inclined to Rage's idea that a new ST attack be implemented before one hits 96 to make priest CC a little easier for those that have to do it on their own. If that seems too low, perhaps a bit higher but well within the priest level range in order to benefit the Paladin CC.


    I will say the bulk of my hot keys are taken up by skills recieved as an acolyte and apart from a damage and defense differentiation there is no real change in game play save for a few reckless AOEs by a group of players fresh to Hell and ready to storm in guns blazin'.

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x

    Edited once, last by MsSarahMay ().

  • You can have alts, yes, but the healing class as a whole is still a kron sink in terms of buying pots. This does go away or reduce as you receive Life Conversion but it's still there. And again, you rely one someone else (whether it's your alt or another character) to refresh your funds.

    In regards to funding the only reason healers are kron sinks is because of your party size, if you want to run out to hell and do full parties then yea expect to get less kron back but duo'n or even trio'n still covers what you spend on pots / skill items and provides you profit besides that. I did a few full parties during CBT and the start of OB and it was very obvious the limitations placed on how much loot you got and what made it even worse was the decreased pricing on items during OB compared to CBT that made it almost impossible to buy pots unless you had a alt to back you up with funding. This is why I refuse to do parties no bigger than 3 people when I'm healing in open maps but in dungeons like lost bryn or sleepless (not boss hunt dungeon) I could probably do parties with 4-5 max because of the increase in loot drops that covers pot use with some profit.


    As for healers being able to solo better, I agree its needed because of the increase in the amount of healers around makes it difficult for some to even get a party though there are times when healers are shouted for when there are barely any on but thats a time zone issue.

  • In regards to funding the only reason healers are kron sinks is because of your party size, if you want to run out to hell and do full parties then yea expect to get less kron back but duo'n or even trio'n still covers what you spend on pots / skill items and provides you profit besides that. I did a few full parties during CBT and the start of OB and it was very obvious the limitations placed on how much loot you got and what made it even worse was the decreased pricing on items during OB compared to CBT that made it almost impossible to buy pots unless you had a alt to back you up with funding. This is why I refuse to do parties no bigger than 3 people when I'm healing in open maps but in dungeons like lost bryn or sleepless (not boss hunt dungeon) I could probably do parties with 4-5 max because of the increase in loot drops that covers pot use with some profit.


    As for healers being able to solo better, I agree its needed because of the increase in the amount of healers around makes it difficult for some to even get a party though there are times when healers are shouted for when there are barely any on but thats a time zone issue.

    I will say you're hard pressed at Paladin level to find a group sometimes. Either people are shouting for a healer well below your level or decline in favor of a smaller group (albeit more drops for themselves). You do have the occasional shout or sometimes spam of shouts but this is also due to time zone differences. The healing class is getting larger and while many parties prefer multiple pullers/DPS they tend to stick to one or two healers.

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x

  • alot of healers are peoples alts.. this is a fact no one can deny

    Whether or not this could be a fact i'm not sure how it refers to the point of the matter.


    We are discussing the class's skills.

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    (و •̀ ᴗ•́ )و Moppy 1X Xenian > ( ≧0≦)ノ━☆༽̨҉҉ Apprentice

    Care of Fam




                                                

    Edited once, last by Broomy ().

  • alot of healers are peoples alts.. this is a fact no one can deny

    That ain't me bro 🤷‍♀️ Also don't get what the point of that comment was? 🧐 I suppose to inform me that for people whose main isn't a healer it's not as important to have a variation of skills? If so, great for that person. But again, that 👏 ain't 👏 me 👏. In fact, that isn't true for a good chunk of people. But, I digress. The point is to get input on what people think of the current set of skills for healers and what we would like to see in terms of new skills for the class. Are skills balanced? Do you like the "new skills"? Do you think we as a class would benefit from a certain type of new skill or a reworking of an old one? Are you satisfied with using Illusion Quake from levels 16 and on or would you like something new? Shower thoughts 😌

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x

  • -Carrying this over from earlier(didnt know this thread was here, sorry)


    GM Toast was kind enough to showcase all the new skills made available with the new update. I was fairly impressed for all classes' new additions.

    However, I was not impressed with what healers have to look forward to.


    Healers:

    must wait an additional 10 lvls longer than other classes.

    get 1 attack aoe buff that seems to be an aoe FistUp for 30 seconds at a 2min cooldown.

    -----by the time we reach this skill, most our party members will clear tiger dungeon in less than 4 minutes. meaning the skill gets used twice

    we get 1 aoe defense buff for +500def(stated for a purpose later on) for 5 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown

    -----this seems to have been made for only one point in time in the game.


    both these skills pale in comparison to the versatility of the skills for the other available classes.

    I understand healers are "support". Why not a HoT on hp or mp? reserved for saint guardian. why not a non attacking stun aoe? maybe an aoe DoT?


    What's given are 2 seemingly circumstantial skills at late levels where other classes are being made more versatile. If we improve all classes, healers are a class as well.

    With the skills having a high level requirement, it can be difficult to fully asses the skills as a player. I understand that input can be more properly made once we get there and changes can be better made.

    Keep in mind, this is my opinion and it can be changed.

    keep a conversation :D


    Additional:
    I wholeheartedly agree that paladins become unneeded as levels increase. Tanks get the def from new gear they once needed healers' buffs for. now they can keep the exp and the drops and nix the healer.
    In og Solstice, I managed to increase my defense enough to gather the entire map of Tincrush by lvl 116 without the need of a def skill pet. I understand that this is a different game so achieving similar results will take longer and occur at a much later level. However, I am finding that this will become necessary for me at a point as finding a party may become impossible as it is already scarce at lvl140+.
    I want to continue to enjoy this game instead of dread spending hours to find a party for somewhat decent experience with a tank that could do it all without me. Adding maps may slow this change, but it will not solve in the long run.

  • toshikawa the game is based off of the western version " Secret of the Solstice ".

    With what you said " If we improve all classes, healers are a class as well. " well sad to burst your bubble the Priest class is a better version of the original game 13 to 14 years ago.


    Priests had the following changes and anyone can correct me if I am wrong
    - Illusion Quake damage increase
    - Howling actually works and is fixed

    - Fist up scaling is increased

    - Powerlight AoE skill

    - Guardianship can be casted by another healer twice

    - Cast range of majority of your skills have been increased


    Priests only nerfs were

    - A slight mana cost on one skill

    - Illusion Quake not stunning no more

    - Minor DoT and DPS modification's on Ghost Steal and Oblivion.


    So while perhaps your two new skills look underwhelming your " entire skill kit " and modifications to your class has been a huge upgrade. And if comes to improving classes here's the following below in comparison to the original.



    Warrior

    - Got nerfed in damage both single target and AoE

    - Indirectly nerfed due to +1/6AP drops not dropping for easier defense

    - Indirectly nerfed due to % defense mount having level requirement

    - Indirectly nerfed due to mob damage increased


    Their new skill is a nerfed version of their former selves, allowing to deal damage like they used to for 20 seconds on a large cooldown, but they lose 100 defense. Their second skill is like the original Force Cut damage of 14 years ago with a different animation, Heavy Slam but probably on a larger Cooldown. So Warlords get to be how they used to be 14 years ago only for a small moment and at a cost of 100 defense loss.



    Mages

    - MEN stat does not effect majority of their skills cast speed

    - Magic Shield is not mana based

    - No Mogras helm yet for extra defense

    - Icicle doesn't overtime hit, allowing them to not solo kite AoE


    They got new nuke skills to give them extra rotating AoE which is a damage increase, but they still fall in the problem of not having their MEN cast speed back it's forever lost in comparison to the old game



    Assassins

    - Have their Dodge nerfed

    - Indirectly nerfed due to +1/6AP drops not dropping for easier defense

    - Indirectly nerfed due to % defense mount having level requirement

    - Indirectly nerfed due to mob damage increased

    - Indirectly nerfed PvP wise due to Tailwind and Pet skill Hitrate implementations


    Assassins got a single target skill that hits multiple times and a AoE skill of which if i am not mistaken allows them to hold aggro with it which are very welcome and looks amazing, but overall they are still nerfed versions of the old game



    Templars
    - Got nerfed in damage both single target and AoE

    - Got balance nerfed due to not being allowed to level as Acolyte

    - Indirectly nerfed due to +1/6AP drops not dropping for easier defense

    - Indirectly nerfed due to % defense mount having level requirement

    - Indirectly nerfed due to mob damage increased

    - Directly nerfed PvP wise due to the loss of stun-rate on their single target skills
    - Directly nerfed PvP wise due to Autogen healing less for dueling


    We got a mana regen buff of which none of us asked for. Having to cast this also is a DPS loss, it makes us pull a map the slowest and even a utility loss when we cannot cast heals as much because we are forced to rotate our buff skills up to 7+ types, now also this mana regen skill ontop of it. And a recycled Deadlock skill of which it seems to be the original Deadlock Damage of 14 years ago only on a different animation and name and it got put on a 5 second CD.



    Archers

    - Overall have their damage increased

    - Class change at lv16 which is a huge buff

    - Have gained multiple stuns
    - Have gained extra slows
    - Have gained AoE Damage increase
    - Have gained Movement speed increase
    - Have gained hitrate increase

    - Mogras helm has not been implemented yet which is a indirect nerf


    ArcherLords got what seems to be a AoE damage increase in the form of DoT. It seems to be bugged but it will be a buff. And a new slow skill which I asked if the slow stacks of which I couldn't confirm so that's a huge dueling buff it practically makes Archers untouchable for future PvP events which is questionable very questionable.



    Overall I have to disagree,

    In that Priests are a buffed version when it comes to their skill modifications as of our original game version where as the majority of the rest of us are nerfed versions. This means the " two skills " might look unappealing to you, but if we go that far I could complain about the rest of our class kits as a whole vs the Priests skill kit as a " equalizer " to fairness on quote on quote " If we improve all classes" like you said toshikawa


    That's not me saying Priests shouldn't get some love in parts where they lack, like having the agency to single target kill more properly. But compared to what other classes have lost and what Priests have gained I wouldn't start complaining...

  • Moving away from my previous post of rant...


    The reason I stated prior that Healers would benefit from a new skill that would resemble that * original Illusion Quake skill * is because it could be modified to deal slightly more damage then the Illusion Quake version that we have currently and it would have the original Stun Rate back. And correct me if I remember it wrong that it also had a slight slow effect as well.

    Because think carefully where healers would have to struggle when Single Target killing. Definitely not during Boss Instances because they are occupied keeping the party afloat. But... what about
    - The Winter Factory? auto aggro mobs
    - The Bunny Lair? during valentine, auto aggro mobs
    - The North Pole station? auto aggro mobs
    - The Dragon Village quests? there are hard hitting auto aggro mobs for them
    - The Seasonal event? them killing the slowest sure but it is quite slow if they are alone

    - Events like Xen madness? they would net the least amount of Xen's theoretically

    - The Guild Dungeon? single target killing


    With possible future content that might have the same struggling issues as a healer. With recent implementations being balanced around Single Target Killing the Priest falls short.


    And people might argue that it's how it should be based on class role. But I for one disagree that it shouldn't be to this rate, that they could use some love to not be casting the same Illusion Quake as of Lv16 or worse... as of years ago from the original game combined with the present day Xen Rebirth on top of it.

  • so, to sum up, are you saying healers are only deserving of the buff/heal role?
    do you believe that healers can/should be granted the ability to be something more once cc to paladin? why? why not?

    My discussion is not over the PAST nerfs/buffs of all classes, but the addition of skills.

  • I got a preview of the skills during PVP one night and quite honestly while the animation was cool I was not impressed with what it entailed. Maybe when new maps open up the skills will serve some purpose but as a whole I don't see them being added to primary hot keys for Paladins, either single targeting or in parties.


    You're definitely hitting on a point I'm trying to make. Appart from dungeons, finding a party is quite difficult past 131 simply because those around your level can do current maps without you. I was in a small party last night in Hell and appart from a quicker (with buffs) kill they could do without me by just using HP pots.

    I agree, our dynamic is very different from OG and definitely improved from Reborn (I distinctly remember very very long CDs for skills) but that point Toshi (and he/she/they can correct me if I'm wrong) was trying to make was in terms of new skills, the ones presented were a far cry from the utility and upgrade we as a class need.


    See my post for suggested new skills :)


    Condensed version below (keeping in mind the new skills we've recieved):


    I would also like to see Restoration work for dead targets. Think of it as a "Revial" upgrade. Require 3 Insignia of Protection if the target is still alive. 3 Insignia of Protection and an Insignia of Life if the target is dead.


    Perhaps for healers a third AOE skill since everyone else seems to have more than 3?

    Suggestions below:


    Purgatory

    AOE/DOT skill that causes burn over time to the affected targets. To not OP the hell out of this, it simply inflicts burn (no damage on impact) and has a long CD.


    Jureah's Gift

    Increases EXP gained for a certain amount of time (2-5% increase. Does not apply during dungeons if this seems too OP and does not stack if more than 1 healer is present in a party.)


    Radiant Beam

    ST attack that has a chance to cause stun

    so, to sum up, are you saying healers are only deserving of the buff/heal role?
    do you believe that healers can/should be granted the ability to be something more once cc to paladin? why? why not?

    My discussion is not over the PAST nerfs/buffs of all classes, but the addition of skills.


    No, Rage's previous posts indicate (again correct me if I'm wrong here) that he favors adding at least a new ST attack skill to our repetoir. I think his frustration is healers got a minor nerf in comparison to other classes and that while we as a class could use a little revamping when it comes to ST skills, we are serving our end game purpose by receiving buffs over new attacks as parties are our primary means of leveling.

    Sammie13 - Paladin - 13x

    Saturn64 - Mage - 7x

    Pluto64 - Templar - 7x

    Nova - Scout - 5x

    Elara - Squire - 2x

    Calypso - Neophyte - 2x