HH should be taken out of old maps

  • Well...healers will always be in demand this way. It leaves the door open to more than just endgame soloing right? Like larger parties that can spread out damage, bind, and kill quickly are without a question more desirable than they were before?

    It reminds me of og aoeing phildevit, which was endgame at one point in time. Except that map actually had 2/3 hard hitters.

    I'm still uncertain.

  • As a healer main, I like having HH in the new higher level maps because it means we are able to serve a role within a party again. Likewise many of these maps are larger and can easily accommodate either a large party or several small parties at a time. That being said, I disagree with incorporating them into maps before Hell simply because it is not fair to those without DEF items/healers readily avalible/Kite AOERs/etc. to have them implemented on maps they were already leveling on without also incorporating an extra incentive (exp gain bonus/new LBs/new drops/etc.)

    Instead they are now getting less experience from maps that were already being heavily utalized (Amor, Bangle, Hell, etc.) for partying which is deterring many from leveling outside of the new World Bosses/Dungeons.

    I get that the developers are trying to slow the progression of players reaching higher levels but even as a healer I have to agree that the base-damage amount for heavy hitters is just too high, especially with the increase in monsters on certain Sky Maps.

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    Edited once, last by MsSarahMay ().

  • I agree with rage, the balancing team needs to be more educated on this, new content great. I like it. new pets, more storage? Yes, let's goo.

    This game took a huge turn that shouldn't have happened right now.

    • Like what was the main goal behind adding HH's into every single map?
    • What's a good logical reason behind this?

    1. Like, I can see it trying to bring the community as a whole together too party up? I can get behind that.

    2. Sadly, we do not have the population for that sort of thing. Sure some parties will happen, but some won't because of drama with other players etc.

    I love harder content, mainly it being end game such as : raids, harder dungeon difficulty etc.

    • AT, this point, might as well turn the game into REBORN.

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  • It seems like the intention to add the HH mobs was to in part to address the concerns voiced by end-game healers that our role in a party was decreasing due to more players obtaining Def % mounts, Def pets, etc..

    After a certain level and/or defense minimum achieved, tanks can virtually solo these maps if they choose - and by extension, 'suicide' AOE'ers and pullers could assist in a party alongside a tank(s) without the urgency to have a dedicated healer present... If they are strategic and careful.

    This type of gameplay shouldn't necessarily be 'punished' by forcing casual players to party up, or the tanks who have earned the minimum defense needed to safely kill in these maps by recruiting a healer just to survive the 40 damage (now changed to 30 damage as a recently hotfix) if they want to maximize the experience gained from gathering the whole map as before. This just artificially slows the progress of players level up by making them treat the new HH mobs as avoidable targets - thus only pulling a fraction of the map for less experience, but a greater investment in time to pull and kill.

    It would be more appropriate (and frankly, less upsetting to the player base that does not already have one or multiple characters Lv 131+) to introduce the HH changes only to the NEW Shenzhen maps. Or... at the least, remove the HH from the Sky maps below Hellein Plains to preserve the path for the Lv100 players to have a reliable way to earn their EXP in open world.

    There should exist the OPTION for players to reliably play the game either solo, or in a party. But, have either style of gameplay be balanced or incentivized to maintain the player's choice to play the game at their own pace.

    While I remain indifferent to the changes as a healer main (this update will likely increase my desirability in parties) , I also don't want to see my tank friends discouraged from playing the game because the option to solo has essentially been removed for them at Lv 90-100+ content. Like MsSarahMay stated, at least provide an incentives through increased monster EXP for these HH mobs, or introduce new BENEFITS to partying. This could be automated party buffs / experience % increase for parties with 3+ or more unique classes. Hopefully that is an idea of how the issues of each class having equal opportunity to level alongside each other could be better addressed.

    I've observed the way that this unexpected change has discouraged players who were previously geared adequately for the maps they were already grinding at to now entirely lose interest in the game. This is a huge blow for those players that have not yet class changed to Fourth Class, for those who have otherwise grinded / saved up for the minimum gears to AOE casually and will now struggle to find parties (reasons like time zone, play time availability, decrease in player base), and even to players who simply choose to party alone.

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    Tir Chonaill

  • I'm sorry for the inconvenience and anger this change has brought up to you.

    We are currently discussing on a change that can make (almost) everyone happy. For those who want HHs and those who don't.

    We already agreed on removing the HHs from Templar+ aswell of some of the first Sky maps.

    For the Sky maps from Verazium Plateau to Heillein, we are evaluating it right now.

    There will be a change on how the HHs will do damage too.

    I hope we get to a solution today!

    If there are more suggestions and recommendation, please continue posting under suggestions! The team is working very hard to continue creating a fun environment for everyone. Your voices are heard, but it has not gone unnoticed.

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    Report Bugs in the Bug Section please!

    Donate if you like the game ;)

  • Amazing! Thank you so much!

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  • I get add HH to Templar maps. It's fine really. But the fixed 30 damage is way to much. They should at the very least be affected by Def. (Def) all should affect against the 30 extra damage. It's basically making def skills and buffs Just worth less in general Like saying who cares if you have spa/ bless/bulwark/Def % mounts and you're Hellen def..... you're still going to get hit 30? I can't get behind that. ;( . Let the HH, hit harder as the maps go up would Fix the issue. Like in temp the HH hits 8 harder and next map it hits 10 harder and so on and so on but still get affected by increase in def... If you want the players to slow down in LV'ing just Nerf the exp a little bit in those maps and do away with HH altogether in those maps again.. As a Warrior it was a huge hit to the gut. All i'm saying is that HH is all good and dandy.... it just "SHOULD NOT" be fixed on any world map LIKE ever;)

  • Can we scale the hard hitters how seasonal dungeon monsters scale? Defense counts, but it's not a 1:1 ratio. I think this would allow each class to retain their identities (super tank, off-tank, etc.) while still taking damage and encouraging party-play with healers and perhaps some DPS.

    Side note: maps with horrible layouts need density buffs or they'll remain dead maps. Quite a few of these maps aren't worth the trouble, as is. It worked for Arobec, so I think it could work for a few of these as well. Either that or transform these into solo havens to give high leveled ST classes something to do during the off hours when parties aren't booming.

  • Can we scale the hard hitters how seasonal dungeon monsters scale? Defense counts, but it's not a 1:1 ratio. I think this would allow each class to retain their identities (super tank, off-tank, etc.) while still taking damage and encouraging party-play with healers and perhaps some DPS.

    Agree with this scaling rather than a flat-fixed-damage approach. At least it shows results of investing more defense for the tank class, even though it would be near impossible to reach a point where those HHs hit like 1s, 2s, etc.

    I personally would have preferred added mobs as HHs versus turning existing mobs into HHs. I think a good example would be the Kongs in Big Apple (unsure about keeping the 100% aggro aspect of it? I think it'd be fine and knowing that they're 100% aggro means that we'd have to cc them immediately as we bump into them. Of if anything 75% is a good percentage of aggro HH to start).

    Having the maps comprising of ~10 - 20% newly added HHs (not converting existing) would have been good to start off to see how it goes and continue balancing from them as feedback comes in (versus this complete shift that we saw), so that feedback wouldn't be as explosive as it is. Like some folks mentioned here, at least it makes AoEing somewhat more engaging as you'd be using your cc skills more often then.

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  • By putting HH in maps any solo player now lvl 100 to 124 is done ,you reduce the dungeon runs so less exp there and I play when off work, I don't have all day to look for a party because I can't lvl by myself. It's not my fault you rushed to end your playing of the game, maybe you should have farmed a bit ,or did a few quest on you powerlvling to the top. Now you are bored and don't care about other players trying to play the game. This stuff ruined the original game and will do it again

  • Sorry for last reply wasn't meant to be ignorant to anyone or class but as far as healers being needed they will not go with a party of lvl 115 players because they don't get exp with them. Put your HH in maps over 140 then they will be needed again and lower lvls have 1/2 a chance to lvl as well.

  • Making something cost more effort is balanced usually with it being rewarding. If it isn't more rewarding, the purpose of making something harder becomes unnecessary.

    Majority of the player-base also are familiar with how the new Rebirth is like i.e leveling through Dungeons and the maps they do grind etc. Thus old suggestions of making the game harder of the existing content pre-update aka before the new Shenzhen maps, isn't going to sit well with players. " People won't like changing familiarity ", specially without compromise. The HH issue has been addressed and that's already good to see.

    HH implementation in new maps not old, should be done with thought behind it. For example be careful with which monster you pick to turn into a HH. Choosing the wrong one will turn perhaps 30% to 40% of all mobs in a certain map into Hardhitters when it's probably more healthy to have it as high as 20% of the map. This can be solved by putting another type of monster in certain maps that only populate a certain percentage of a map.

    Other examples

    • Experience point yield is increased on specifically HH's
    • Rare gear drop rate values from HH's is increased
    • Rare enhancing drop rate values from HH's is increased
    • They are required to be killed for certain ( guild / story / huntingdaily ) quests
    • They could even drop explicit luckyballs not available anywhere else

    Not saying any of these are perfect solutions or ideas, but you give " incentive and reason " for players to want to pursue grinding them. Because at the moment if they don't have anything extra, they lack purpose and only serve to make the game difficulty harder mostly so healers have a reliable reason to be partied.

    Chookie The healer issue I bashed with the solution that " every other class should be allowed to AoE ". While perhaps a tank can or cannot do x y z map, surely the classes with less defense who could AoE and pull with the " Mogras Helmet " will want a healer. Tanks are then compensated with damage returned to them because they aren't the only once that can pull now. So it becomes more of " whoever is available be it mage/archer/templar/assassin/warrior, we don't care, we can all AoE at some point. Party whoever you want <- aka more parties = demand for healers increases ". ( I sound like a broken record right... )

    Other then just purely hitting higher levels beyond 170+ closer to 200 in maps with increased difficulty, grinding needs to be rewarding in some way shape or form to want to make players desire increase for grinding to create more parties for healers to be more needed.

  • For the Sky maps from Verazium Plateau to Heillein, we are evaluating it right now.

    Tbh I feel like the pre-Q3 version of the Sky Maps from Verazium to Hellein were fine since they already had HHs in the first place (at least for most of the maps as far as I know, plus 3/4 out of those maps are rarely used, if not occasionally used, as far as I'm aware--Verazium, Arobec, and Hellein being the most commonly used maps).

    Like for Arobec, most folks won't get the defense until much later on, and once they do, they can move from Hellein to there instead. It's an example map where tanks can feel some incentive to invest in their defense and move there once they meet the defense requirements. That's why we've been seeing a move from Hellein to Arobec nowadays as more tanks start getting the defense they need to tank the HHs, plus it's such a great layout for more engaging large pts (versus Hellein).

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  • I also agree with Celten in that the HHs in Verazium to Hellein should be reverted back to their pre-Q3 version. To me, it doesn't seem like the newest iteration of HHs was intended to be implemented in the Sky maps (including those from Templar to Amorica), after having experienced AoEing at Arobec Plateau after the newest hotfix which modified the hitrate/dodge interaction for the new HH system.

    Before the Q3 update, the hard hitter on that map, Mavu, used to hit my Shadow Master for about 80 (and critting for 120) with spa buff and a healer's Bless buff. I managed to suicide AoE just fine with a healer, despite how hard the Mavus would hit me for. Now with the changes, Mavus are hitting me for 60 flat without crit. Besides the change which increased the movement speed of mobs in high level maps (which can be viewed as a positive change, since it shortens map gathering times), the post-Q3 Mavu is making it easier for me to AoE at Arobec, which I don't think lines up with the design philosophy behind the Q3 update.

    Given how the newest change to HHs completely shattered the Warlord's class identity, reverting the HHs back to their old format will restore their status quo as one of the two tank classes in the game. With the current implementation of HHs, Warlords are even less tanky than Shadow Masters, especially after the recent change to the interaction between HH hitrate and player dodge. Reverting the HHs in Verazium to Hellein back to their old formats will not only appease the decked out tanky Warlord players who used to be able to solo AoE these maps without a healer, but also increase the difficulty for other classes that can't hit the same levels of defense as Warlords do.

    Furthermore, I want to add that I think HHs dealing a flat 60 damage is overkill. The mobs in Seasonal and Guild Dungeons hit for about 50 (with slight fluctuations depending on your character's defense), but those maps are Solo Havens. It does not make sense to me that the HHs in the new AoE maps should hit harder than the mobs in the Solo Haven Seasonal/Guild Dungeon maps, especially when considering the density of said HHs in the new maps. I like ClepClep 's idea to tweak the true damage to scale with character defense (but not one-to-one as with regular mobs), but with an amendment that the fixed damage should not be a number greater than 50.

  • For HH damage, when you have the defense to aoe, 40-60 seems acceptable because anyone who aoe'd any of the many lower level non-dungeon maps like Loren-Edine, Chant+, and those even lower than that would be familiar with that kind of damage from HH. However Static/Flat/True whatever you want to call it damage that ignores defense just ruins any sense of progression you feel when increasing your defense, regardless of your class. When I'm active, I occasionally go back to the Chant+ maps because even tho exp sucks for me there, I can choose what difficulty I want when solo AoEing while just having fun. If HH damage was like what was implemented in East Eir/sky maps, then that effectively reduces any reason I'd have of going back to lower level maps and forcing me to follow the flow of going to the highest level map I can do. People like to feel they are making some kind of progress.

    In any event, the time to add HH to East Eir/Sky Maps would have been within a week or two of players reaching those maps at the earliest(just like how solo haven exp was reduced quickly), and within a month at the latest(which would be stretching it). Doing it MANY many months after players gained access to them, and gotten used to them, especially without some kind of compensation, is a recipe for disaster which can clearly be seen. Reducing the amount of mobs you can gather by 1/3rd, means you get 66% of the exp you'd normally get, a 50% boost to mob exp to bring that back up to 99/100% would have been the bare minimum compensation. Then you have the actual difficulty of gathering mobs. For Templar-Oda it's still relatively easy to avoid HH when you want to with how spacious it is, but I imagine the Jungle maps like Big Apple where you don't have much room to move or see sometimes would be difficult. Then you have the actual number of mobs...

    The last thing I want to say, is something I wanted to suggest for a while but didn't feel the need to. You have an example in the game already, which is Blackmail-Nordis VS Chant-Phil. They are a set of mirror maps in terms of level, but promote different play styles. Blackmail+ is Solo Havens while Chant+ allows AoE. While I don't actually agree with the current implementation of Solo Havens(AoE will always give faster exp/drops if available), I do like the idea of having maps of similar level promoting different play-styles. While it's too late to do so with the currently available maps(Sky maps start at around Oda level I believe, but have been in Rebirth since the start), the idea could be applied to a specific channel instead. For example Channel 5 could have hard hitters, but with boosted exp. Just something to think about as not only a possible alternative, but a way to allow players to test these kinds of map changes and provide feedback without as much backlash compared to applying the changes to all channels of a map at once.

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