i think you need more dodge/move speed towards your build as all mobs in new maps run at least 1.5 - 2x faster its the problem of delay after they attack that i see.... they need to be moving after attacking as i drop easy 5/10 mobs after they attack me due to them standing still too long....
You definitely can adjust your gear and build more toward dodge rate. My thoughts are that the intended purpose is to encourage more than just solo aoe, if the goal is to gather more than half the map at a time.
Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that the intended purpose is discouraging kite AoEing more than encouraging party AoEing, and that the HHs are what would be the main thing that encourages more party AoEing.
AoEing on my SG with a healer definitely made it frustrating to AoE the new maps with the mob speed (my limit is half the map before killing the mob out of frustration; this is with +6 shoes, Robo Wings, and Introspection constantly active). It's not just the mob lock, but also mobs frequently dropping from the desync (?) from trying to outrun and break out of the mob lock (and thus dropping part of my mob on my healer--hence why I just have my healer either away from me or meet me midway on the map instead).
I honestly would be okay with the increased mob speed if speed desync and mob dropping weren't issues that I had to deal on top of mob locking.
YES and MORE YES to ALL of this.
It's the combination of the mob lock and therefore the resulting mob dropping that discourages me not only from playing but also from wanting to party other people.
I do not want to add "scared of killing people" to the list of frustrating things, right under "annoyance with this darn mob lock".
AoEing on my SG with a healer definitely made it frustrating to AoE the new maps with the mob speed (my limit is half the map before killing the mob out of frustration; this is with +6 shoes, Robo Wings, and Introspection constantly active). It's not just the mob lock, but also mobs frequently dropping from the desync (?) from trying to outrun and break out of the mob lock (and thus dropping part of my mob on my healer--hence why I just have my healer either away from me or meet me midway on the map instead).
You definitely can adjust your gear and build more toward dodge rate. My thoughts are that the intended purpose is to encourage more than just solo aoe, if the goal is to gather more than half the map at a time.
I get the intended purpose. I support that intention.
What I don't think is that this ridiculous mob locking is helping towards ANYTHING! lol.
I get the intended purpose. I support that intention.
What I don't think is that this ridiculous mob locking is helping towards ANYTHING! lol.
Well i guess the idea is if u get mobblocked u cant gather full map so its more efficient to get a 2nd puller.
Honestly, in my opinion, I feel that the intended purpose is discouraging kite AoEing more than encouraging party AoEing, and that the HHs are what would be the main thing that encourages more party AoEing.
AoEing on my SG with a healer definitely made it frustrating to AoE the new maps with the mob speed (my limit is half the map before killing the mob out of frustration; this is with +6 shoes, Robo Wings, and Introspection constantly active). It's not just the mob lock, but also mobs frequently dropping from the desync (?) from trying to outrun and break out of the mob lock (and thus dropping part of my mob on my healer--hence why I just have my healer either away from me or meet me midway on the map instead).
I honestly would be okay with the increased mob speed if speed desync and mob dropping weren't issues that I had to deal on top of mob locking.
yea it actually makes me super hesitant to party in the new maps because I drop mobs so often and I don't want a healer to die. I don't mind the HH, and the moblock can be frustrating but if that's part of the game then it is what it is, but the dropping of mobs is the killer. They also pause for a really long time after hitting you which makes it even more likely that they drop. I'm not sure if the super long pause after hits was intended? Idk what the reasoning behind it would be. To address kite aoe I'd think mob speed and hit rate would suffice.
I made a thread post regarding the possible implementation of a Crowd Control System with a Google Docs explaining how.
In short, the proposed Crowd Control System would give the Balance Team a foundation where not only PvE Hard Hitters with or without CC ( Crowd Control ), bosses with CC as well as PvP balancing can be achieved. Opening the doors to possibilities to fix a lot of balancing issues in not only PvE, but also PvP i.e the entire game as a whole.
The usual excuse is not because of the workload, but it " altering the game to much ". Even though I seen a lot of changes that could vaguely fit the narrative of " altering the game to much ". Because now balancing has to be done in a very limited manner.
I call it half-assing in my country, or short cuts or cutting corners, since it's just a lot easier to not do all of it and increase the movespeed of the monsters in every map i.e half-assing.
Then the delayed attempt to balance the movement speed issue so late into the game was also targeted oddly with a nerf towards dash candies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to identify the problem which is the early access to Robowings and the Archer skill Tailwind injecting way to much movespeed early on into the game to the point it's to late to balance it now solely based on movespeed alone.
Now with limited amount of ways balance can be achieved, it has to somehow be done with just solely damage numbers received and movement speed. Resulting in the following
Desync in any game is a issue even if your ping is as low as 20ms there are games out there that still give players issues let alone players with higher latency or a game server not provided by a large company i.e a private server.
This also stems heavily towards class roles which I bashed to the ground already, but if no one noticed...
Kite AoE issue would have never needed to be addressed if every class were allowed to all AoE like we used to
Combined with more level gates set up to create proper " pacing " in the game, which again also a bit late to do that now. Added bonus that our skills and damage skills of a lot of classes did not require nerfing or changing that would... what did they told me again? " altering the game to much " I believe.
Would probably require another shortcut adjustment. This time towards the mob's movespeed due to the backlash of the players feedback who experience moblock so frequently, which could make Kite AoE make a return again. A win / win in some peoples views... I guess... Still not exactly the perfect solution I would want to suggest, but at this point it probably does more good then harm to do so.
yea it actually makes me super hesitant to party in the new maps because I drop mobs so often and I don't want a healer to die. I don't mind the HH, and the moblock can be frustrating but if that's part of the game then it is what it is, but the dropping of mobs is the killer. They also pause for a really long time after hitting you which makes it even more likely that they drop. I'm not sure if the super long pause after hits was intended? Idk what the reasoning behind it would be.
i mentioned it too Gummy i hope he takes notice of it, He said it worked fine but it's really not when the average person move speed is between 45-55 thats where the testing needs to be done in all maps from the start at shenzen forest as im not sure where the speed of mobs increases but it does go faster from forest - yellow gate by a noticable amount.
Also on another note everyones ping is different too so need to take into account that not everyones ping to the server is 20 or below mines 80-100 average so the delay gets bigger, it just makes it that much more challenging and its troubling for me to find incentive to even go aoe which is usually a friend asking to go duo or a healer saying lets go aoe without mob dropping them... if not i refuse too cause i drop half my mobs and spend a good amount of time chasing them between running off from random rock placements or bridges those things are a nightmare ._.
Well i guess the idea is if u get mobblocked u cant gather full map so its more efficient to get a 2nd puller.
have u tried gathering mobs in the new maps? lol
you get mob locked way before you even gathered half the map.
So in AOE yesterday with three (and four at one point) pullers at Yellow Gate, mobs were constantly falling off the back of all the Aoers who weren't even going fast and the mobs delayed response, as well as the mob lock for them was terrible. It was a real annoyance and I suspect something needs to be fixed.
So in AOE yesterday with three (and four at one point) pullers at Yellow Gate, mobs were constantly falling off the back of all the Aoers who weren't even going fast and the mobs delayed response, as well as the mob lock for them was terrible. It was a real annoyance and I suspect something needs to be fixed.
Correct. The delayed response has been quite frustrating with me currently in the new maps. I have not been able to AoE all the way to Yellow Gate yet, but I was trying to in Xiamen -Exit- for the 50 kill count the Shenzhen PQ required.
The mobs stop for a good 1-1.5 seconds every time they hit you before continuing. This pattern has been driving me insane even as a SM who tries to avoid getting hit in general. A lot of time wasted is due to going back to recollect the dropped mobs.
Not to dismiss the points brought up here -they are valid. I just feel that since the new maps were added the trend has been to steadily weather down the difficulty without providing alternatives to retain a "necessary" challenge. Necessary being an environment that is conductive to party play instead of dismissing it in favor of the most efficient xp rate.
Lately however I've been wondering whether one problem actually has to do with party xp distribution itself.
Someone more savvy with math might be able to better elaborate. I'm math challenged. However, the intuitive feeling I've been getting is that at higher level ranges the way xp is divided is more punishing (or rather, more of a deterrence) than it ought to be. In other words maybe it would be a good idea to add more bonuses to buffer xp division, so that if you are doing full map in shenzen no problem you aren't as dissuaded, in terms of time and effort, from adding that healer or dps.
I agree that aoeing in the Shenzhen maps is extremely frustrating. I can see the design rationale behind why the changes were implemented, but I think they need tuned to be tolerable for most classes.
Proposed Benefits
Proposed Changes To Make This Tolerable
Again, I can see why the changes were made. I've really enjoyed the increased mob density/number of monsters per map. I think with some tuning it will be less frustrating to play with.
Display MoreI agree that aoeing in the Shenzhen maps is extremely frustrating. I can see the design rationale behind why the changes were implemented, but I think they need tuned to be tolerable for most classes.
Proposed Benefits
- It clearly stops kite AoE dead in its tracks - it's really hard to do now without additional speed buffs on top of full speed gear.
- Is this a benefit? There was backlash when the max level was ~90-110 because "someone was aoeing a map I couldn't", but that died down after a few weeks. I didn't mind that DPS classes could pull small mobs to help their tanks.
- It encourages party play. I've actively looked for parties in Shenzhen Waterfall, even if it's with a tank that does a significant amount less damage than me because gathering takes up a vast majority of the time when dealing with lock. Gathering past 75% of the map is frustrating, even as an SM with dodge and extract to break lock. Party play enables gathering without lock, thus more experience per unit time.
- It (theoretically) speeds up gather time. This is theoretical at this point as changes need to be implemented to attain this benefit. If monsters are faster (to a certain degree), it takes less time to gather as you're not waiting for them to catch up.
Proposed Changes To Make This Tolerable
- Mob management is the biggest struggle with this update. The monsters are moving faster than you can manage them. Under normal circumstances with the previous mob speeds (Temp+/Sky Maps), you'd be able to run semi-circles around your mob if it got strung out. This strategy would ensure all the monsters in the mob were in a tight group that would attack at the same time. This would allow for a quick and easy barrage of hits while gathering other monsters. The movement speed buff in the Shenzhen maps causes two problems, and I can think of two ways to fix them.
- The monsters run too fast and aren't able to be run around to form them into a cohesive group. This leads to all the monsters attacking at different times (they attack, fall back, wait, then come back), leading to lock. It's nearly impossible to get them back into a group without extract or a speed buff, even with Robo Wings on.
- Solution (which will receive backlash): Allow access to increased movement speed. My first thought on where this would come from be to buff the enhanced Robo Wings. I was surprised that both the base stat and defense was buffed, but the movement speed remained unchanged. Additional movement speed will allow for better mob management, but it re-enables the ability of kite AoEing. There was obvious backlash from the Tailwind implementation, but perhaps it will be more acceptable if everyone has the ability to gain increased speed. This is obviously gated behind many weeks of Robo fragment farming, though, so it may be unattainable for most casual players. Locking the ability to tolerate AoEing behind a massive time gate may push casual players further away from wanting to play, so I'd suggest implementing movement speed in another way or going with the option below.
- The attack speed of Shenzhen monsters needs to be increased. The pause between attacks, which is the same across all monsters from what I can tell, is especially problematic in the new maps. The monsters speed ahead and whack you, then pause, then start chasing you again. The new maps encourage speed items for fast gathering, but this constant pausing leads to strung out mobs that can't be managed (see above). The mobs then get dropped off the back if you don't hesitate, adding on to the frustration pile.
- Solution: Increase the monster attack speed or recode how the monsters follow. Increasing monster attack speed is probably higher gain (lower time investment). With increased attack speed, the monsters will pause less between attacks so they'll spend more time following you and less time dropping off the back of the mob. The alternative is to recode monsters to always follow once hit. Remove the pause in movement between attacks and let them continue attacking at their current attack speed.
- Possible issue: Would this increased attack speed lead to more lock? Possibly, so the increased movement speed (or tune down the movement speed buffs a little) change (see point 1) may also be needed for this.
Again, I can see why the changes were made. I've really enjoyed the increased mob density/number of monsters per map. I think with some tuning it will be less frustrating to play with.
I think the approach on how to fix this depends on what problem you're really trying to fix, but I agree with some tuning it can for sure be made to work.
If you're trying to fix mob LOCK, then yes adding additional obtainable movement speed would help, but if you do it via the enhanced robowings then yea you're locking out the casual players. Adding more obtainable movespeed would also defeat the purpose of the mob speed changes to begin with.
If you're trying to fix mob DROP, then adding additional movement speed would INCREASE mob dropping. Increasing the attack rate of the mobs would fix mob drop, but would then AMPLIFY mob lock.
I think your idea of changing how the monsters move and having them continue to follow you without an attack actually in their queue would be great at solving mob DROP!
Another option that I think would completely solve the mob drop issue is to change the monsters sphere of influence. I'll use made up numbers for example's sake. Let's say that right now the monsters will stay pursuing you if you're within 10 feet of that monster. Why not increase this to 20 feet? 30 feet? That way you wouldn't have to revert mob speed, you wouldn't have to increase attack rate (which would make moblock even worse), and you wouldn't have to give any additional speed to players via enhanced robowings, etc. If you get moblocked and you do that spammy click thing to get away, you'll eventually get away and your mobs still wouldn't drop. No more dead healers, no more going back picking up escaped mobs. Is there any downside to raising their sphere of influence?
Mob management is the biggest struggle with this update. The monsters are moving faster than you can manage them. Under normal circumstances with the previous mob speeds (Temp+/Sky Maps), you'd be able to run semi-circles around your mob if it got strung out. This strategy would ensure all the monsters in the mob were in a tight group that would attack at the same time. This would allow for a quick and easy barrage of hits while gathering other monsters. The movement speed buff in the Shenzhen maps causes two problems, and I can think of two ways to fix them.
Well said.
One issue I can see with handing out more movespeed is that the higher player and mob movespeed is, the greater the difference in points you need in order to produce the same outcome. For example 18 vs 23 is very effective whereas 40 vs 45 won't do much. We would need some very substantial, xenepic-esque bonuses to movespeed.
Assuming that mob speed isn't going to be nerfed, increasing mob follow distance would seem like a pretty straightforward improvement. As of now they will pursue right up to the edge of the screen, so maybe x1.5 distance would be enough? Even x2. We even have a brand new pet that allows for easy escape from mobs.
Display MoreI think the approach on how to fix this depends on what problem you're really trying to fix, but I agree with some tuning it can for sure be made to work.
If you're trying to fix mob LOCK, then yes adding additional obtainable movement speed would help, but if you do it via the enhanced robowings then yea you're locking out the casual players. Adding more obtainable movespeed would also defeat the purpose of the mob speed changes to begin with.
If you're trying to fix mob DROP, then adding additional movement speed would INCREASE mob dropping. Increasing the attack rate of the mobs would fix mob drop, but would then AMPLIFY mob lock.
I think your idea of changing how the monsters move and having them continue to follow you without an attack actually in their queue would be great at solving mob DROP!
Another option that I think would completely solve the mob drop issue is to change the monsters sphere of influence. I'll use made up numbers for example's sake. Let's say that right now the monsters will stay pursuing you if you're within 10 feet of that monster. Why not increase this to 20 feet? 30 feet? That way you wouldn't have to revert mob speed, you wouldn't have to increase attack rate (which would make moblock even worse), and you wouldn't have to give any additional speed to players via enhanced robowings, etc. If you get moblocked and you do that spammy click thing to get away, you'll eventually get away and your mobs still wouldn't drop. No more dead healers, no more going back picking up escaped mobs. Is there any downside to raising their sphere of influence?
Great idea i like the fact that increasing there range of inluence if that is what its called or the meaning of it increasing to stop mobs dropping off would change alot if it was increased 1.5x or doubled as move speed is almost double so in my opinion i dont see a problem increasing there Range either, it sounds like a quick fix to the solution rather than trying to change the way a mob reacts "causing more bugs/time consuming coding".
Would rather wait for all the mobs to reach me stood still to kill then have to go back and get half of them 
Instead of fixing or tweaking MSPD, why not just fix what creates the problem to begin with?
If the Shenzhen coding or whatever you call it (I know nuthin', Jon Snow) is set to the same numbers? figures? values? as Templar+ or Sky Maps, then we wouldn't be having this conversation 
have u tried gathering mobs in the new maps? lol
you get mob locked way before you even gathered half the map.
Well i was solo gathering yellow gate on my sm. Im not really getting moblocked but thats very uncommon on sm anyway.
