Class Balance (Shadow Master)

  • I saw that there is a planned Balancing and new skills on the list on roadmap.

    (i just wanted to repost this in the right forum section)


    Roadmap 2021

    • Balancing - PLANNING
    • New events - COMPLETED for now
    • Pet & Mount reroll - COMPLETED
    • More quests & automated events - NOT STARTED
    • New maps (More of shenzhen and beyond) - IN PROGRESS - (12 released on 04/03)
    • Some more QoL improvments - PLANNING
    • Guild Dungeon adjustments (player rewards, level rewards) - NOT STARTED
    • New Skills - NOT STARTED
    • PvP improvments & balancing - NOT STARTED
    • Xenepic Revo migration - IN PROGRESS


    I only really can speak of the perspektiv of a Shadow Master , i spend most of my time on that class in this version of the game so i want to give some feedback and how i and i guess most of us feel about the class now.


    The class also suffer from loseing the class identity , we no longer have the crazy hax dodge since both Warlords and Saint Guardians are spend most of the points on agi to gain very similar dodge or same dodge , since currently it is the meta on Shenzen + maps.

    I dont wnat to see any crazy nerfs to them insted i would be awesome to see a a buff to our dodge on shadowmaster.


    The ideal way would be adding a passiv that makes our dodge better , a High LV Passiv Skill would be the best, my suggestion was "Perfect Dodge" what tiggered become active as long as Enhance is active and the effect of skill would be : every 3rd income hit From enemis has 100% Miss. (the passiv should be in lv145-180 range)


    I feel that left hand daggers and ofcourse swords for warrior should gain a main atk stat similar like shields so Lv96:+9Atk , Lv112:+10atk , Lv131:+11Atk , Lv150:12Atk Lv172:13Atk

    and gain 2Atk every + on them.


    Addig this feature could open up a rework on an old skill Double Strike currently this skill only add a bit of damage to our attacks what not bad but overall its a big miss step on makeing the class mehanic uniqe , so i suggest the following rework on it , as the skill say it suppose to make our hits hit twice but that would be very overpowered just like that so better balance would be if its only effekt the main singletarget spamable skills : Threaten , Dust Blade , Possible new high endgame singletarget skill.

    The skill Also only would work as long as you useing your Left Hand dagger.

    With this Change Shadows become a great killing machines on singletraget as a Melee class , and since we lose our shield to be able to use this its will be only really good for 1v1 combat.


    The last thing is also singletraget combat Skill what work same , a highend lv singletarget skill that deal max like 20% more damage than dust balde but base Do Double Hit.( This skill also would require to use left hand dagger)

    This skill also can be effekted with Double Strike so under that buff so the skill can hit 4 times just like in Xenepic. (optimal lv for this skill world be lv170-200)

    by this shadows could reach similar or same dmg output as Archerlords , wizard but as a melee while they still in the danger of geting hit , even if Double Strike come with a negativ dodge debuff like Art of War for Warlord.


    Aoe skill wise the class work great im very happy about it , But indeed we really need that carzy suicide aoe feel on high end maps where warlords can tank without problem we should be able take those maps with income 50-70 dmg with healer becouse of our hax dodge , with the current balance Warlords and Saint Guardains can do the same if they heavy invest in agi while they still have better defence , and they also switch to dps items after reaching def breakpoint , what make Shadows a bit meh....


    I hope some love for shadows in the next class balance patch and would love to see buffs for other classes that suffer from similar issues ... uhmm SG's....

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



    Edited 3 times, last by Reg ().

  • Great post, but do you think you could change the font colors for some of the stuff here please? There were some that were very bright font blending in from the white. I had to highlight the whole text to read what you were saying. This is just a suggestion :) . Thank you.

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  • Great post, but do you think you could change the font colors for some of the stuff here please? There were some that were very bright font blending in from the white. I had to highlight the whole text to read what you were saying. This is just a suggestion :) . Thank you.

    i made it White , hope its better now . Sorry i have a Monitor with 10mbit color on animation setup so colors are a bit diff for me ^.^'

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



  • For the dodge thing, I think adding the effect of sandstorm to a single target move would be nice. Would be good for pvp so you don't hurt your party, while also effectively boosting your dodge.

    None of the 4th classes are really that much better than 3rd class. You get some extra nice stuff up to around level 146 or 151, but after that, there are no new exciting skills, you have enough points to have all the agi/dodge and pow/wt you'd need, you can access all the maps, etc.

  • I dont know the feasibility for coding this, but the dodge cap could be played with. Like raising the cap for neo class to 120, or setting the cap for all other classes to something lower (has been mentioned before).

  • i made it White , hope its better now . Sorry i have a Monitor with 10mbit color on animation setup so colors are a bit diff for me ^.^'

    Yes. Thank you.

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  • Shadowmaster in my opinion isn't in a bad spot.


    Dots, Mobility, Enhance for Dodge cap, Dungeon desired, tanks better than tank classes. Yet their identity lacks. Dodge stat has readily available sources, but dodge is nerfed in this version. Invisible skill put on a pet... why? Tailwind competes with SM's unique speed. Traits that should feel unique to SM don't feel unique anymore.

    What are Assassin, Ninja, Thief, Shadowmaster?

    • Agile, Nimble, Fastest
    • Strike from the Shadows
    • Highest single target DPS for a few strikes
    • Venom, Poison, Bleeding
    • Assassinates and isolates targets

    And this is lacking. Other games honor these traits a lot better and I see no reason why that can't be done in Rebirth.


    Apply buffs to pre-existing Skills

    Gaining move-speed, damaging buffs, for 2 / 3 / 4 seconds on most their skills or ( extract and invisibility included ) while keeping the original effect of them intact. It makes the gameplay fluid and keeps the Assassin class fast. Just like in most other games.


    Extract skill is Instant

    By removing if possible, the character animation and making Extract feel instant should make for a good buff. Extract should be instant in my opinion. Just like in most other games.


    Hit Rate Debuffs

    Aside from Sandstorm, here are some existing in-game examples


    Spirit Nova.png         Anemia.png


    In a well-rounded game, every class has a set of skills with hit-rate and dodge buffs and debuffs. Some more than others, putting the responsibility on the individual to mess up or make their dodge shine or have class synergy with others. ( Just like in most other games ).


    Dodge Cap increase

    I am a firm believer in buffing more, nerfing less


    Many games do the opposite, over-nerfing for the sake of balance only to destroy player gameplay experiences in the process and doing the opposite of reaching balance.


    I prefer every class to build however they please. Tanky? Dodge? Glass cannon you name it. But, the Dodge remains the attribute for the Shadowmaster. Increasing the dodge cap and buffing means to reach that new dodge cap for only SM's should help the SM feel unique. Everyone can still choose to build Dodge, but the SM remains king of dodge ( Just like in most other games ).



    I-Frame buffs

    A certain amount of frames of invincibility. If dodge is too hard to balance? grant Shadowmasters I-frames similar to Saint Rising for a few seconds applied to say Extract and Invisible to mimic them being nimble. In the hands of a skilled player, it's powerful since it only lasts for a few seconds. It also allows Assassins to be immune to enter Stealth in safety away from harmful AoE ( just like in most other games ).



    Most of what I stated I have said before already on the forums. Inspiration taken from

    • Black Desert
    • Revelation
    • ArcheAge
    • Perfect World
    • Ether Saga
    • Forsaken World
    • Tree of Savior
    • FFXIV
    • Tera
    • Guildwars
    • Eden Eternal
    • Grand Fantasia
    • Ragnarok
    • Dragonica

    And many other game titles. And yes, by no means are any of these games " Xen Rebirth ".


    I have been bashed for suggesting complex and " too complicated " ideas before, but honestly... for how simplistic the game is for players to want their unique class traits to shine, it requires " something " due to the consequences of which direction they steered the game towards.


    The Assassin class lineup should feel like an Assassin, and it is far from impossible. It does require effort.


    More is possible with the new Client. I saw a glimpse of passive skills and a possible skill tree system that could expand what we have astronomically if done right. We can only hope for the best that they can balance and improve the gameplay of all classes.

  • I dont know the feasibility for coding this, but the dodge cap could be played with. Like raising the cap for neo class to 120, or setting the cap for all other classes to something lower (has been mentioned before).

    the way how dodge work in this version is called "random" the more dodge we have its goes more random by base we take less hit but only noticeable in big numbers , 80 dodge and 100 dodge not really noticeable the differenice by makeing the cap higher for shadow wont really slove the issue its would just make Shadows spend more points on agi to make our dodge a bit better but overall wont really help the class.

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



  • What are Assassin, Ninja, Thief, Shadowmaster?

    Agile, Nimble, Fastest
    Strike from the Shadows
    Highest single target DPS for a few strikes
    Venom, Poison, Bleeding
    Assassinates and isolates targets

    And this is lacking. Other games honor these traits a lot better and I see no reason why that can't be done in Rebirth.

    Indeed but other mmos build up in a diff way and overall have diff gameplay.

    We are fast thx to our speed skill even if other class have t too like AL's its still fine since robowing and must use wing now its kinda pointless to bother with this .

    Strike From the shadows ye it would be a cool pvp skill but pvp is dead in this game and pve wise its totaly pointless with that high cd on invis and how the game flow works. its still remain a nice toolkitskill for some senarios like maybe events , or get out of aoeing but thats it.

    Highest Single traget for few strikes - yes this was the idea behind of remakeing Double strike skill to create a Dmg window for Shadows where they can deal same or even better dmg under the duration of the buff .

    Poison wise we have 3 single traget dot so that all good.


    Hit Rate Debuffs

    Aside from Sandstorm, here are some existing in-game examples



    In a well-rounded game, every class has a set of skills with hit-rate and dodge buffs and debuffs. Some more than others, putting the responsibility on the individual to mess up or make their dodge shine or have class synergy with oth

    The reason why i dont like the idea of adding another debuff skill cos its again an extra skill slot , another skill to bother with even is aoe or single traget , adding the effekt existing skill like sandstorm would be alsoa bad idea its would be fine for aoe but in single traget not the best thing , and they way how dodge work it would be justa bit of buff for us , ye its would be great party debuff too but still its just not direct class mehanic buff for the class it self , its would feel like lf the aoe dmg debuff combine with Auto gen would become a party insted self debuff would feel a bit off.



    I-Frame buffs

    A certain amount of frames of invincibility. If dodge is too hard to balance? grant Shadowmasters I-frames similar to Saint Rising for a few seconds applied to say Extract and Invisible to mimic them being nimble. In the hands of a skilled player, it's powerful since it only lasts for a few seconds. It also allows Assassins to be immune to enter Stealth in safety away from harmful AoE ( just like in most other games ).


    not a bad idea for aoe but would be skill that i would not bother even use in dngs/boss or singletraget grind , it would be very 1 direction 1 formal use skill that bleed on many senarios.


    From the list there is only 1 that i would say the game could get some inspiration and thats ragnarok online , cos this was the game what made DNC make this game , yes it is a much simple and noob friendly format of that game. The rest of the othergames are in dee core as an rpg yes similar but fundamental build of those games a whole different world. I think we true want to balance the game we need look at more on the other version that existed of this game Xenepic , Reborn , Old sots , Xen online .


    For example the Single target skill i suggested is based on the skill what shadows had in Xenepic , the double strike as a buff based on a skill that existed in reborn. the "perfect dodge" well in core the idea come from raganrok online but thats not a skill its a build where sin's go High agi/luck and right item combos so they can reach dodge rate where normal mobs no longer can hit them only mvps-"bosses" but that would be broken in here . so i just combined the idea how old Auto Gen worked " every 5th income hit heal you 90hp" - Perfect dodge - "every 3rd hit 100% miss".

    Triggering Passiv effekts with existing or new skills already in the game last time archmages got this type of skills , Senergy Blizzard tigger a 50% dmg buff for tornado and this trigger 50% dmg buff for vulcano , in same mindset Enhance would tigger the passiv.


    Perfect dodge in Raganrok:

    but as i said this would be total broken here , and there is hard to get also.


    Xenepic Revo Shadow Single traget skill:

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



  • I would like to see a much lower cap on dodge for other classes, whether its by assigning a specific number (much lower than 100) to those classes or by changing the rate at which they get dodge through Agi. (for example 1 dodge per 4 agi instead of 3) I don't think other classes should be gaining dodge at the same rate as SMs, just like we don't get as much attack through Pow as WLs.


    I might be biased because I play SM, but the "class identity" was all about dodge. And it feels wrong when everyone else can do it just as well. Why do SMs have much lower def than WLs if they can dodge the same? Why should an AL have SM dodge and range with high dmg? I'm not a huge fan of nerfing things, but I don't think other classes should've ever been able to attain anywhere near the dodge cap in the first place.

  • Ooh. The xenepic Revo video looks awesome.

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  • I would like to see a much lower cap on dodge for other classes, whether its by assigning a specific number (much lower than 100) to those classes or by changing the rate at which they get dodge through Agi. (for example 1 dodge per 4 agi instead of 3) I don't think other classes should be gaining dodge at the same rate as SMs, just like we don't get as much attack through Pow as WLs.


    I might be biased because I play SM, but the "class identity" was all about dodge. And it feels wrong when everyone else can do it just as well. Why do SMs have much lower def than WLs if they can dodge the same? Why should an AL have SM dodge and range with high dmg? I'm not a huge fan of nerfing things, but I don't think other classes should've ever been able to attain anywhere near the dodge cap in the first place.

    Sadly that would be a direct nerf to other classes , i dont mind if they have high dodge cos as i said this is a "random factor based dodge" thats why it sometimes happen we get like hit 3-4-5 times in a row, they have to sacrefice more points into agi than us to reach same number ofc not much only 45point more. I more prefer the idea adding class mehanic passivs that make them out spec of agi and go for diff build , for example in the other post i said SG's should gain a passiv that tiggered and become active when they use auto gen , that passiv would make them gain resist on flinching 50-100% effekt , by that SG's nolonger can get stunlocked at all on the otherhand makeing Auto gen effekt only tiggered when you get an accual hit dmg not miss , by this they would go Pow,Men and heavy on STA insted so they also can go crazy with they class mehanic , more life more dmg to take.

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



    Edited once, last by Reg ().

  • Reg I'll phrase it differently based on a conversation with GM_Emet-Selch.


    Most effects can be applied to Existing Skills.

    Dodge and Hitrate buffs and debuffs included. As well as on Damaging skills. Meaning no new skills overloading the Hotbar " just applying effects ". The screenshots existing in-game, were from altar bosses to take crude examples from. I-frames mainly have huge PvP applications. View it only for PvE and you only take one side of the coin.


    The game is very Linear.

    • No Crit Damage specific stats
    • No Crit Defense specific stats
    • No Crit Dodge specific stats
    • No proper x Hitrate vs x Dodge formula
    • Building Dodge sacrifices near no Defense

    There is no punishment for going AGI to go Dodge and players aren't forced to sacrifice one stat for the other like Dodge for Defense or like the stats listed above ( just like in other games ).


    Balance from Dodge sources often comes through skill trees / passives / class gear / class dodge buffs / or debuffs to make dodge more effective in favor of 1 class ( like the Assassin ) or briefly less effective over another.


    But we have a universal stat window where everyone can access dodge. Coupled with no means to get yourself out of Crowd Control, just pre-emptive prediction like JLS and SR... makes for a very linear game.


    Not saying any of this should or could be implemented, Not saying this is the fault of the current balance team, just stating the obvious " it's very linear ". And I much rather see our stat interactions like Dodge to Hit Rate being fixed, our foundation like our skills being adjusted, without overbearing new skills to overload the hotkey, yet keeping it nostalgically accurate of the original effects of our skills, to result in balance.


    If we're just yelling " I want balance, I want my class identity, and I want everyones dodge to be nerfed for that sake " without thinking of consequences or counterbalancing or how many non-Shadowmasters might not even like that... Yeah...gee... I guess I'll start leveling my Shadowmaster, at least it will have an identity that's " useful over useless "

  • The game is very Linear.

    • No Crit Damage specific stats
    • No Crit Defense specific stats
    • No Crit Dodge specific stats
    • No proper x Hitrate vs x Dodge formula
    • Building Dodge sacrifices near no Defense

    Yes , sadly this is the overall sacrafice the game had to done to keep the whole game simple , that why crit dmg is fix 50% more and no modify on that stat in any form. as i remember there is 1 mondier for archerlords Snipershot that make that skill have base higher chance to crit but im not sure is that can go above the crit cap.


    If we're just yelling " I want balance, I want my class identity, and I want everyones dodge to be nerfed for that sake " without thinking of consequences or counterbalancing or how many non-Shadowmasters might not even like that... Yeah...gee... I guess I'll start leveling my Shadowmaster, at least it will have an identity that's " useful over useless "

    As i said i want no nerfs to any class only buffs that make all class more uniqe by makeing class mehanics stronger. thats why im agaist playing with base stats effekts on classes , caps and narrowminded soultions.

    15x Shadow/ Reg - Main -

    Lv10x Warrior/ LordReg - retired -

    lv8x Archer/ Nanachi - retired -



  • As i said i want no nerfs to any class only buffs that make all class more uniqe by makeing class mehanics stronger. thats why im agaist playing with base stats effekts on classes , caps and narrowminded soultions.

    eh, I'd be fine with other classes getting a dodge nerf. 100 dodge is already OP (unless you significantly boost your hit rate), and i don't think it was really intended for other classes to have so many stat points that they can all get to 100 dodge. It all works fine and as intended up until around level 150 or so, then anyone can get to 100 dodge with stat points, which doesn't feel intended. idk.

  • Why don't people just build their class the way they want and lets leave "the dreaded nerf" or limitations on other classes alone? Have we not learned from the nerf of other classes how it literally messes up that class? Leave it alone...

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  • Why don't people just build their class the way they want and lets leave "the dreaded nerf" or limitations on other classes alone? Have we not learned from the nerf of other classes how it literally messes up that class? Leave it alone...

    It would hardly be a nerf as it would only affect classes lvl 150+ with enough stats they can dump into AGI. It clearly wasn't intended for other classes to be able to reach such high dodge. lvl 150+ class design wasn't very well thought out.

  • It would hardly be a nerf as it would only affect classes lvl 150+ with enough stats they can dump into AGI. It clearly wasn't intended for other classes to be able to reach such high dodge. lvl 150+ class design wasn't very well thought out.

    I'm sort of 50/50 on this.

    One of the cool things about getting to the high lvlz is having stat points to play around with and not having to put em all in what you're class "needz"

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  • It would hardly be a nerf as it would only affect classes lvl 150+ with enough stats they can dump into AGI. It clearly wasn't intended for other classes to be able to reach such high dodge. lvl 150+ class design wasn't very well thought out.

    No nerf is a good nerf. Leave the classes alone

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  • No nerf is a good nerf. Leave the classes alone

    I'm a SM, I feel like i'd benefit more from the dodge cap being increased than the cap lowered for other classes, so i'm definitely not bias in any way I don't think. The only classes it would really hurt is... archers? The biggest benefit it gave to warlords was less flinching, but that was solved with anti-flinch potions. Weren't you even one of the people complaining about how much archers were dodging moves in pvp? Just seems OP that archers get both high hit rate AND dodge, while SM just get dodge.

    I'm sort of 50/50 on this.

    One of the cool things about getting to the high lvlz is having stat points to play around with and not having to put em all in what you're class "needz"

    well yea, i'm not saying every other class should be banned from using AGI and be given no dodge. Just that SM's dodge shouldn't be able to be matched like archer's hit rate can't be matched, or warlord's def can't be matched. Idk what having more than 100 dodge would be like, but 100 dodge is already OP, imo. Its nearly impossible to hit them without any hit rate boosts.